In the past few months I've come to think that there's something very wrong with the philosophical work of Alvin Plantinga--not "shocking, how could he do that!" very wrong, but "this isn't right, even if I can't put my finger on it" very wrong. It really first came up when I was in the process of revising, for Internet Infidels, my comments on chapter 1 of William Lane Craig's Reasonable Faith. (If anyone wonders why I dislike Craig, read those comments first, along with Robert M. Price's comments on the same material). I was going to include a mention of Craig's use of Plantinga. At first glance I thought Plantinga would reject Craig's views. Then I became less sure what Plantinga was trying to say. Now I doubt that Plantinga knows what his position is. The passage that really got me thinking was in his book Warranted Christian Belief, at the end of the chapter on Biblical scholarship. Plantinga imagines a situation in which we have apparently conclusive evidence that Christianity was a hoax (in the form of letters among the original disciples, etc.) and then asks if Christians would have to give up their beliefs in that situation. He response is to the effect that he doesn't know and isn't terribly interested in the question. I can't give an exact quote, because I left my copy of WCB back in my hometown, but similar material can be found here:
A series of letters could be discovered, letters circulated among Peter, James, John and Paul, in which the necessity for the hoax and the means of its perpetration are carefully and seriously discussed; these letters might direct workers to archeological sites in which still more material of the same sort is discovered...That's just from a lecture-notes forerunner to the relevant WBC chapter, but WBC isn't really much more substantial.
There is no need to borrow trouble, however; perhaps we can cross these bridges if we come to them.
This is weird. Most people would have no trouble saying that if there were conclusive evidence that Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard was a fraud, then people would best give up Mormonism and Scientology, respectively. It isn't just that Plantinga is willing to endorse a counter-intuitive thesis, it's that he entertains it without bothering to provide the slightest reason why, contrary to appearances, it might be true. He isn't interested in investigating the question. Yet the question hits fairly near the heart of everything he's written on the rationality of Christianity.
On the one hand, Plantinga seems obsessed with the question of whether his religion can be rationally believed, on the other hand, he seems surprisingly lazy and lacking in curiosity when he talks about the subject. He'll do what it takes to fend off the charge of irrationality in the short term, and appears to not care much beyond that. So many of his papers on the problem of evil boil down to "who cares if there's evidence against my views?" One of the places this came up is in the e-book Internet Infidels is putting together. Paul Draper's reply deserves to be quoted in full (note here that Draper considers himself an agnostic, and thinks there are good arguments for and against the existence of God):
Plantinga makes it clear that he wants to draw this further conclusion when he says that, "To produce 'a serious argument from evil against theism . . .,' Draper would first have to show that theism is false." I will close by showing that Plantinga's inference here is incorrect: . . . The reason it does not follow is that there are very many people who, like me, don't believe they already know that God exists (or that God doesn't exist), and for that reason believe that it is appropriate and important to engage, not in apologetics, but in genuine inquiry designed to determine, to the best of their ability, whether or not God exists. Included here are agnostics as well as theists and atheists who have doubts about God's existence or nonexistence. These skeptical souls have no choice but to do their best to objectively assess the available evidence. Thus, for them, the fact that E is strong evidence favoring naturalism over theism, which my argument demonstrates, is of great significance.There's more I could say, but I don't have all the appropriate resources in front of me, so I'll rest there for the time being.
Moving back to Craig, all this stuff coming from Plantinga, a supposedly respectable philosopher, lends a certain amount of support to Craig's approach to philosophy/apologetics, even if Plantinga himself has no idea whether he wants to endorse Craig's view. This is a bad thing. Craig urges Christians to hold onto their beliefs no matter the evidence to the contrary, but at the same time to try to come up with rational-sounding arguments to use to win converts, keep sheep in the fold, and convince themselves that dissenters are as deserving of damnation as the Bible says they are. This is an abandonment of what's best in philosophy: the honest search for truth. Part of me, Tim, wonders whether you really would side with Craig on this point. If you do, though, I stand by what I said: it would be an unmitigated disaster if people like you became a force in academic philosophy. It was nice having coffee with you, but friendship only gets you so far. And even if you don't stand with Craig here, I still find the extent of his influence on you worrisome.
Finally, the Craig-Avalos debate. The audio is available here, the key thing is to listen to the first few minutes of Craig's first speech. The very first thing Craig says when he's done being chummy is to call Avalos "unprofessional," for the following reason: Avalos criticized another scholar, because said scholar had claimed some Biblical manuscripts were complete, when they were in fact missing parts. Craig claimed that the official scholarly definition of "complete" doesn't require all the pieces to be present. Even if so, the original claim was still misleading, which is why I previously said "misleading at best." Also notice that Craig says "the goal of academic debate is to get at the truth." On its face, Craig lied right there about his intentions, unless by "get at the truth" he means "try to convince people the evidence is on your side, even if the evidence clearly shows you're wrong."
Craig's sleaze and his broader disregard for intellectual honesty goes hand in hand. He doesn't care about having legitimate points, just about sounding convincing. He works this way even when he's contemplating smear campaigns against real scholars. He is a dangerous, despicable charlatan, and it disturbs me that he seems to be getting the influence he wants in contemporary philosophy.
24 comments:
Do you think that Craig is actually aware of what he is doing? Because Christian apologists never question their assumption that they already know what the truth is, I think they find it very easy to accept that any argument for their own position that sounds convincing must in fact be absolutely irrefutable. If someone like Avalos makes another apologist look bad, it could only be because Avalos engaged in ungentlemanly conduct. It is not that I don't think that Craig is responsible for his shoddy behavior and scholarship, I just wonder whether he has any consciousness of the fact that he is shoveling crap.
It's a little hard to know exactly what's going on inside his head with every lousy argument Craig puts out. His opening statements though always show evidence of lots of preparation and conscious polish, sometimes even his rebuttals seem prepared in advance. More than anything, though, the things he's said in Reasonable Faith and numerous other places make clear he's thought an awful lot about the core issues.
I read a bit of Plantinga in undergrad, but I can't say I ever quite figured out his position. I tend to associate him with the Kalam cosmological argument, though I don't recall if it's because he supported it, or if it's because we just read both around the same time in that class.
Tom: Craig is much more closely associated with Kalam than Plantinga is. Plantinga has shown some interest in such arguments for the existence of God, but only a little.
You bring up a lot of issues here. I’ll try to address them one at a time.
Reformed Epistemology
Firstly, I don’t know enough about this view to speak in details, but I think I have the gist of it. Plantinga’s view on religious epistemology is that belief in God (and I’m pretty sure belief in the truth of Christianity) is properly basic. The kernel of it was developed in his book God and Other Minds. Basically, he thinks belief in God is like belief in other minds. It’s not something that can be proved with logic, where ‘proved with logic’ means a strong, deductive proof resulting in mathematical type certainty. Belief in God is like belief in the reliability of my memory, my senses, and in induction as a generally reliable form of reasoning. I don’t know what Plantinga says in the particulars of arguing for this view, but it strikes me as a view that would be tough to argue for. After all, how do you argue that belief in other minds is rational? You can’t. It just is. (If one doesn’t see this, one doesn’t understand the problem and should refrain from passing judgment on Plantinga and Craig.)
Plantinga talks about theism as a rational belief system because a belief being rational is pretty much as good as it gets when it comes to belief or disbelief in God. This isn’t just a matter of choosing your favorite belief and declaring that it’s properly basic. Plantinga gives an example (somewhere) to illustrate. Suppose your spouse is murdered. You have a clear memory of what you were doing the night she was murdered, however, the evidence is stacked against you such that any outside person considering the evidence would say, without a doubt, that you’re guilty. Are you obligated to believe in your guilt? No, of course not. Your belief in your innocence is properly basic and rational. (Actually, it might be a bank robbery in the example, and I should say that Plantinga also talks about defeaters for belief. I don’t know what he says about defeaters for a properly basic belief in God or if he thinks there are such things.)
Regarding Craig’s appeal to this view, you need to realize that he’s not offering it as an argument for belief in God. He can’t. There’s no argument to give. He’s claiming his belief and my belief (but not your belief or a Muslim’s or a Morman’s) are properly basic, requiring no evidence. A belief is only rational for a particular person in a particular situation. He might be saying that this (Christian theism) is available to everyone and that it could be a properly basic belief for anyone, but not that it is right now (I don’t think he says this.)
Now is it intellectually dishonest and reprehensible, as you say it is, that he holds this view and offers arguments against disbelief in Christianity? It might be, but it doesn’t follow straightaway from what I’ve said so far. What might make it intellectually dishonest? I don’t think you specify this, but you certainly ought to if you’re going to toss epithets around. How about the following:
1) if he were offering them disingenuously
2) if he weren’t willing, in principle, to admit a good counter-argument
How about (1)? Well, this doesn’t apply. I think he sincerely believes the arguments he gives are good arguments that ought to convince the dispassionate observer. And (2)? Craig is not committed, in principal, to not admitting a good evidentiary argument against theism. It would be perfectly compatible with his beliefs that the evidence is against them. Whether or not he would admit a good deductive argument against theism, I don’t know. I think if he came up against one that he thought was sound, he might reevaluate, if not his entire belief system, at least his epistemology. But the fact is, Craig thinks the evidence and arguments are on the side of Christian theism, and he argues as much.
What you do charge Craig with is urging Christians to hold onto their beliefs, come what may, and to come up with “rational-sounding” arguments to use in apologetics. I think he urges them to come up with rational arguments, and there’s nothing wrong with this, and he would be rather inconsistent if he thought that other Christians’ beliefs weren’t properly basic but his were.
You also charge him with abandoning “what's best in philosophy: the honest search for truth.” Craig believes his religious beliefs are true, so how is he urging people to give up on a search for the truth? And I don’t think you’ve shown, or can show, that he’s urging anyone to do this dishonestly. So I don’t think your charge sticks. Further, there’s a limit to what philosophy can do for us regarding truth-seeking. Arguably, philosophy leads us toward rational belief more securely than it does truth. It’s a presupposition of yours that rational belief tends toward truth. It’s a presupposition I share, but a presupposition nonetheless. If we live in a world of evil demons or brains in vats, there’s not much our philosophy can do for us regarding the truth.
This whole thing can be put as follows. If God exists and gives us a faculty with which we can know Him directly, Craig is right. If God does not exist, Craig is possibly (maybe probably) wrong about his belief being properly basic. (For all that, it might still be rational. Frankly, if God doesn’t exist, our epistemic situation is much the worse, so the standards for rationality might be greatly lessened, perhaps tending more toward pragmatic concerns.) All we can do in philosophical and historical discourse is to discuss and debate, as Craig does. (Think about it, really, if God exists, Craig is absolutely right. How do you know Craig is wrong? Are you begging the question in asserting that his belief isn’t properly basic?)
That said, I’m not sure exactly what I think about Plantinga’s epistemology. I’m sympathetic, but I can’t honestly say what I would do or believe if I came to think the evidence stacked against Christianity. It seems like you believe this is only an issue that theists face. I mean just as a matter of course, I don’t think atheists are any more objective or dispassionate than Christians, and I think it’s naïve to think substantially otherwise.
Second issue: the Craig-Avalos debate
What Craig said in his opening statement was certainly not unethical or unprofessional, whatever it was (abnormal maybe). You said, “Avalos criticized another scholar, because said scholar had claimed some Biblical manuscripts were complete, when they were in fact missing parts.”
Let’s not pick and choose here. Avalos did more than take issue with the facts, which would have been fine. He pulled a stunt designed to embarrass his opponent, and the stunt had nothing to do with his opponent’s qualifications. I’m sure Biblical scholars read about the original manuscripts and study transcribed copies of the text that are printed on regular paper. His ability to recognize the originals is almost certainly totally irrelevant.
Secondly, the guy claimed that the manuscripts had complete copies of the New Testament. If the argument was meant to claim that we have copies of all the original texts--complete in that sense--that are early then the point at issue would be whether the texts are mostly there from beginning to end rather than just fragments. It wouldn’t matter for the point the guy was (probably) making whether or not there were holes in the manuscript. This was Craig’s point. If that’s what the guy was arguing, then it doesn’t matter that there were holes in the manuscript and so not complete in that sense.
But that really isn’t the main issue. Avalos didn’t simply argue that the texts were incomplete, which would have been fine. He didn’t have to do that to make his point. It was sensationalist. What’s wrong with Craig preempting such a move as that, especially knowing how things are in live debates in front of audiences where the appearance of incompetence is worse than an unperceived reality?
I don’t know why all the invective against Craig, but it reminds me of contemporary political discourse. I know I’m not completely unbiased, but I think I can spot charlatans and disingenuous arguments. Craig has always struck me as being very intelligent, very sincere, and never willing to give pat answers to difficult questions. To call his arguments “lousy” or to make the statement Vinny made is either willfully biased or culpably ignorant. (Really, if there are two things the arguments are not, it’s weak and unsophisticated.)
Timothy,
What do you think Craig’s reason was for beginning his debate with Avalos by criticizing what Avalos had done in a different debate? I cannot see any point other than planting the idea in the audience’s head that Avalos is the kind of guy who is likely to pull some stunt in the current debate. I see that as an ad hominem attack. I suspect that Craig was concerned that shortcomings in his own arguments or scholarship might be exposed and he wanted to be able to use the excuse that Avalos was just pulling another stunt.
My evidence professor in law school liked to complain about movies and TV shows where a lawyer would object to something as “prejudicial.” “Of course it’s prejudicial! Why would any lawyer ever bother to introduce evidence that wasn’t prejudicial?” “The question,” he would explain, “is whether the tendency to unfairly prejudice the jury outweighs the probative value of the evidence.” I have no expertise in the subject matter of the Craig-Avalos debate or the Shelly-Avalos debate, but Craig’s complaints sound to me like attempts to deflect attention from the fact that Avalos had effectively demonstrated Shelly’s faulty understanding.
I have not examined Craig’s work as closely as Chris has, but I did take a good look at the source for his “rate of legendary accumulation” argument that “clinched it” for Lee Strobel in The Case for Christ and I concluded that he had willfully distorted A.N. Sherwin-White. http://youcallthisculture.blogspot.com/search/label/William%20Lane%20Craig. I have been following the whole Anthony Flew hubbub and I found Craig’s criticisms of Richard Carrier to be on a par with his criticisms of Avalos. I admit that this is a small sample but what I have seen is consistent with Chris’ evaluation of Craig.
The Craig-Avalos thing ought to be able to be settled. I'll admit that Craig's gambit being benign and justified doesn't prove he's not a charlatan if you'll admit this episode isn't evidence for that conclusion.
To answer your question, I think Craig's motive was exactly what he said it was, to preempt Avalos pulling the same kind of stunt. Unless I missed it, no one here has argued that the stunt was justified or in any way necessary to make the point he wanted to make. I think that's because you can't make the argument. The point could just as well have been made by showing the slides and saying, "well this is a picture of manuscript X, clearly not complete."
What Avalos did was to make it look like his opponent hadn't investigated something very basic to his argument. This made his opponent appear totally incompetent and irresponsible. However (with a disclaimer that I don't know exactly the type of scholarship his opponent engaged in nor the standards therein but very strongly suspect--having myself a bit of familiarization with Biblical scholarship--that what I'm saying is accurate), visually identifying the original manuscripts is not something all Biblical scholars need to be able to do. The guy might have read a journal article or two written by someone who works with the original manuscripts and then studied a transcribed copy of the text himself. He needn't have ever seen the originals. So it was a low blow.
Consider it from Craig's perspective. He knows Avalos has done it in the past. He knows what the effect is in front of a live audience that knows little to nothing of the real issues. If he said nothing and Avalos pulled the same stunt, he would lose the debate, hands down, in the eyes of the audience.
I'm fairly familiar with Craig's work and his debating style. I can't recall any instance of him using an ad hominem argument. I can't speak for every argument he's ever given or every debate he's participated in, but I'll just say that I see virtually nothing of what you guys are saying about him.
In listening to the Avalos debate, I thought Avalos was petty, sarcastic, and made terrible caricatures of the other side's arguments. I'm sure you all would disagree. I think that shows the significant role of inherent bias in these things and the real need for a charitable hearing of the other side's arguments before condemning them (the arguments or the people).
'Belief in God is like belief in the reliability of my memory, my senses, and in induction as a generally reliable form of reasoning.'
You mean your memory is utterly reliable, your senses can detect electric charge and neutrinos, and you use induction to work out where the roulette wheel is going to land next?
Unfortunately for Plantinga, his chosen comparisons are comparisons to processes which are error-prone.
But his conviction that God exists is even more certain than his belief in his memory (unless Plantinga thinks he has never forgotten anything in his life)
So how can Plantinga claim that belief in this alleged god is properly basic, when not even his memories are properly basic?
'To call his arguments “lousy” or to make the statement Vinny made is either willfully biased or culpably ignorant.'
Really? Craig claims we can just look and see that certain stories are legends.
Guess what? He uses a different measure when talking about the Bible.
What a surprise!
Matthew 28 - There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
William Lane Craig explains how to spot whether something is a legend.
CRAIG
For example, in the gospel of Peter a voice rings out from heaven during the night, the stone rolls back of itself from the door of the tomb, and two men descend from Heaven and enter the tomb.
Then three men are seen coming out of the tomb, the two supporting the third. The heads of the two men stretch up to the clouds, but the head of the third man overpasses the clouds. Then a cross comes out of the tomb, and a voice asks, "Hast thou preached to them that sleep?" And the cross answers, "Yea".
CARR
What exactly makes the Gospel of Peter's story of angels an obvious legend, yet Craig believes every single words of Matthew's story of an angel descending from heaven, with an appearance like lightning?
The answer is simple.
William Lane Craig uses two measures.
One for the Gospels - where every word is true.
And another measure for all other writings, where he laughs at stories which are very similar to Gospel stories.
For example, Craig scoffs at the Gospel of Peter's claim of a talking cross, yet Craig believes in a talking donkey.
William Lane Craig thinks the story of the stone rolling back of itself from the tomb is an obvious legend, yet Craig is certain that the following really did happen, exactly as Acts 12 says it did, 'They passed the first and second guards and came to the iron gate leading to the city. It opened for them by itself, and they went through it. When they had walked the length of one street, suddenly the angel left him.'
But surely claims that iron gates opened of themselves is just an obvious a legend as the story in the Gospel of Peter that William Lane Craig curtly dismisses as 'legends'
TOM FOSS
I tend to associate him with the Kalam cosmological argument, though I don't recall if it's because he supported it, or if it's because we just read both around the same time in that class.
CARR
Don't worry about not being able to recall exacly what Plantinga said.
Plantinga claims your memories are properly basic.
So you can believe whatever you think you remember, no matter what evidence there is that you just imagined it.
Even if Plantinga himself were to say he did not discuss the Kalaam argument, you would be under no obligation to believe him.
Because your memories are properly basic. Plantinga himself said so.
Timothy,
I don’t see what the justification is. If you believe your opponent to be a dishonest debater, then don’t debate him or make sure that the rules for the debate prohibit him from or penalize him for engaging in dishonest tactics. Accusing your opponent of being a dishonest debater in your opening statement does not strike me as a benign gambit. I don't see it as anything but an ad hominem attack.
Moreover, I will be happy to make the argument that the “stunt” was justified: According to Avalos, Shelly had written “the entire text of the Gospels of Luke and John, dating from between A.D. 175 and 225, have been published by the Bodmer Library.” Prepare To Answer p. 139. In fact, 1/4 to 1/3 of the Luke is absent from the referenced papyri and a couple dozen verses from John. Shelly should have known this from a transcribed copy even more than from the original papyri. Avalos certainly could have chosen a less effective way to demonstrate Shelly’s ignorance, but that does not mean that there was anything unfair or misleading about the way he chose.
Apologists frequently tout the multitude of manuscripts dating back to 125 A.D. while side stepping the fact that the vast majority of those manuscripts don’t even date to the first millennium. Rarely do they acknowledge the extremely fragmentary nature of those few earliest “manuscripts,” (e.g., the earliest fragment only has five verses of John). I think Shelly deserved to be embarrassed for engaging in those kinds of overstatements.
I just ran across a video in which Craig makes the following statements:
The way that I know Christianity is true is first and foremost on the basis of the witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart. This gives me a self authenticating means of knowing Christianity is true wholly apart from the evidence. And therefore, if in some historically contingent circumstances, the evidence that I have available to me should turn against Christianity. I don’t think that that controverts the witness of the Holy Spirit. In such a situation, and I should regard that simply as a result of the contingent circumstances that I am in and that if I were to pursue this with due diligence and with time I would discover that in fact that the evidence—if I could get the correct picture—would support exactly what the witness of the holy spirit tells me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-fDyPU3wlQ
In other words, it does not matter whether the evidence contradicts Craig’s position. He believes that the correct picture must be something consistent with what he already believes.
Steven, you said, "You mean your memory is utterly reliable?"
No, that's not what I mean, and if you interpret me like that, what I say will sound very foolish indeed.
About Craig's views on various stories in the Bible and in extra-canonical gospels, or whatever, you probably have to distinguish between what he believes and what he thinks is provable using methods of historical inquiry. When he's debating, I doubt if he ever uses the story of Balaam or those specific details from Matthew in his arguments anywhere. From a historical point of view, the most obvious explanation for the details of the Gospel of Peter story is embellishment. If Craig says the same thing about the details from Matthew, he's admitting that they don't stand on their own, historically. You would need some other reason to believe in them other than their historical plausibility. You don't need them to explain anything, unlike the resurrection of Jesus. But if you believe in the resurrection, you've got theological, not historical, reasons to believe other details of the Bible.
There's nothing wrong with this, unless you insist that there can be only one source of support for beliefs about ancient texts. He can say that we have no historical ground for believing details from the Gospel of Peter or specific details from the Gospels while at the same time saying that we have excellent historical reasons for believing in the resurrection. I wouldn't expect someone to believe Jesus walked on water if they don't believe he was resurrected. That's plain silly. But if you believe in the resurrection, the amount of support needed for other details is greatly reduced.
I see. So Plantinga claims that properly basic beliefs like memory are not reliable.
Why then does he think that he has shown anything if he somehow came up with a valid argument that belief in an alleged god is properly basic?
And why does Plantinga write that you should trust your memory even when all the evidence in the world is against it?
Because he wants people to believe in an alleged god despite any evidence against it.
Plantinga says that he simply doesn't care about how much evidence there is from evil in the evidential argument from evil.
So he comes up with a bizarre analogy about trusting your memory even if the evidence suggests your memory is wrong.
An analogy that it seems even his supporters realise is 'very foolish indeed'
And you admit that Craig uses two measures for Bibical books and non-Biblical books, dismissing some stories about the resurrection as obvious legends, while claiming that stories in the Bible are true, although they contain elements found in stories dismissed as legends.
Vinny, I agree that he either should have not debated him or made some sort of arrangement. Avalos, in some comments on the internet, said that Craig was "brought in to defeat him," or something in that general tone. Maybe Avalos really destroyed the other guy and Craig and others really thought someone should debate him competently. I don't know, but I'm not convinced from this one point that Craig is unethical. At the worst, he sunk to his opponent's level, which still wouldn't be good.
Regarding the manuscript stuff, the point Shelley (?) might have been trying to make is exactly that we have manuscripts dating from early on that go basically from start to finish. If we had that, we could compare whatever is there (50-90% of the actual text perhaps) with what we have of later copies. If the 50% of what we have is very close to the same portions of the later texts, you don't need the other 50% to make the point that what has come down is basically what was written. If that's the point Shelley was making (which is what Craig implies) then it's untouched by Avalos' stunt or the facts he brought in the process. That is, actually, the consensus among Biblical scholars, so I don't know what Avalos was trying to show anyway.
Regardless, the dramatic effect of showing Shelley to not be able to recognize the originals adds absolutely nothing to the argument and is dishonest in its own right.
About Craig's views, you've got them mostly right, so far as I understand them. He believes that the truth must line up with the truth of Christianity. That doesn't entail he's committed to the evidence coming out that way, and so for reasons I've explained above, it doesn't entail he's at all dishonest or disingenuous in the arguments he does give.
Do you guys just have a problem with proselytization? If so, I'm not going to touch that one, and I probably need to stop spending so much time on here and do some actual work.
Briefly (since I just can't seem to tear myself away from here)...
If you want to know more about Plantinga's epistemology, he co-edited a book with Nicholas Wolterstorf published by Notre Dame Press circa 1980. I recommend it.
Craig uses two standards, and he applies them both to the Bible and both to the Gospel of Peter. In the former, one of those standards lends support to HIS belief in those parts of the Bible, the other does not. In the latter, neither standard lends any support. When he's debating, of course he's only going to use the historical standard to support arguments, and so he'll only talk about stuff that can be properly supported with it.
Timothy,
Avalos quotes a passage from Shelly’s book that refers to the publishing of an “entire copy” and the “entire text.” I don’t own the book, so I cannot say with certainty what Shelly’s point was. However, based on my familiarity with apologists arguments about manuscripts, I really find it hard to think of any argument he could have been making that would have justified describing the papyri as “entire.” At the least, I would place the burden on him to detail the justification. Moreover, if Shelly had had a reasonable explanation for using the word “entire,” I don’t think Avalos’ stunt would have had much effect even though he did not recognize the originals.
Regarding Craig’s statement, I don’t see how anyone can conduct a rational investigation of any issue without recognizing that evidence which shows a position to be wrong at least raises the possibility that the position is a wrong. A scholar might believe any particular piece of evidence to be incomplete, invalid, or misconstrued, but he must still believe that it is evidence that determines the outcome of the inquiry rather than the witness of his own subjective beliefs. He can be pigheaded, stubborn, and obstinate about accepting evidence, but he must at least acknowledge that evidence is what decides the issue.
I spend a day at classes, and look what I come home to. Let's see:
>"Do you guys just have a problem with proselytization? If so, I'm not going to touch that one, and I probably need to stop spending so much time on here and do some actual work."
Why on earth do you think we do? I could speculate on what you're thinking here, but it wouldn't be pretty.
On Avalos: First, I need to make one thing absolutely clear: there's nothing wrong with doing things that call a scholar's (or at any rate someone with a Ph.D.'s) competence into question when he's done something to warrant it. Your comments about politics and invective suggest you feel otherwise. On the invective, I don't know why you're confused, as we've put quite a bit of effort into explaining what's wrong with Craig. On politics, sure there are hacks who make negative claims about the other side without any good reason, but that doens't mean there aren't any bad politicians or commentators whose actions deserve harsh criticism.
My complaint about Craig's behavior in the Avalos debate is twofold:
(1) The charge was bogus. Craig's opening statement alone provided enough reason to suspect this. Furthermore, according to Avalos' account of the Shelly debate (http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2008/01/dr-hector-avalos-comments-on-his-debate.html) Avalos got Shelly to concede that the manuscripts weren't complete. If so, Avalos' tactics made perfect sense: by asking questions first and explaining himself later, Avalos prevented Shelly from engaging in the sort of word games with the definition of "complete" that Craig used in his debate with Avalos. Indeed, the mere fact that Avalos was able to ask questions of Shelly suggests time had been specifically set aside for this purpose: i.e. questioning to get your opponent to say things they wouldn't otherwise say.
(2) Craig's opening statement was clearly designed to paint Avalos as unprofessional and deceitful. The suggestion of unprofessionalism was explicit; the suggestion of deceit was implicit in the comments about "questionable undergrads." All of that would have been fine if he had justification for his claims, which he didn't. But there's an additional problem here: Craig, though he had started the exchange of personal attacks, later complained about them and used them as a pretext for ignoring Avalos' criticisms. That's hypocrisy.
On Plantinga: Steven and Vinny basically got this one. The fact that you can generally trust your memory doesn't provide the slightest reason to think you can be indifferent to evidence against other beliefs you hold. Your account of Plantinga's philosophy was thus largely accurate but largely irrelevant.
On the search for truth: as I hinted in the original post, it is very strange to think that going out to win converts is the same as searching for truth. It seems natural to suppose that searching for truth involves a willingness to admit you might find something surprising--which Craig refuses to admit in the case of Christianity.
To think the biases of other people excuse what Craig does is to assume that there's no difference between trying to rationally look for truth, but doing an imperfect job, and abandoning the search for truth as described above.
On Craig's intelligence, arguments, etc.: This is a tough one. Certainly, Craig often manages to side-step mistakes that even many reasonably educated apologists who've read his work continue to make. That suggests he really is pretty smart.
But I do not back down from claiming some of his arguments are lousy. To give only the most obvious case, his presentations of the moral argument generally consist of little more than appeals to authority. Even you, Tim, knew enough not to do that when you debated me. Thus, either Craig is not intelligent enough to realize that appeals to authority cannot settle a contentious philosophical issue, or he knows and doesn't have the scruples to avoid using such fallacies. Choose your poison. I lean towards the latter, but it's hard to say.
TIMOTHY
If we had that, we could compare whatever is there (50-90% of the actual text perhaps) with what we have of later copies. If the 50% of what we have is very close to the same portions of the later texts, you don't need the other 50% to make the point that what has come down is basically what was written.
CARR
Is that a joke?
You find 50% of an early copy of a will, and compare it to what somebody claims is an accurate *later* copy of the will, and a court will accept that you have now shown that the will has not been tampered with, and that the later copy is a full and accurate copy?
I have never heard such lousy arguments.
Here is what Craig said in his debate with Avalos
'We learn from Josephus that James was eventually martyred for his faith in Jesus Christ during a lapse in the civil government in the mid 60s." Source: Paul Copan and Ronald K. Tacelli, eds. Jesus’ Resurrection: Fact or Figment? (Downer’s Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press 2000) p. 190'
Of course, Avalos called him on it - hence the vitriol directed at Avalos....
I made the comment about proselytization because it seems like you're against Craig trying to persuade others to his point of view, or at least that you don't think he should be doing so until he agrees to allow HIS beliefs to be guided solely by evidential concerns that would be evaluable by a third party. You imply that it's dishonest of him to actually think that an argument is independently persuasive and to argue on such a basis and to still hold the view he does.
As I see it, this whole thing seems to center on Craig's position that his experience of God makes his belief in God properly basic. You think his holding this position implies that he's doing something horrible by engaging in academic pursuits and popular debates. I don't see this, largely for reasons I've stated above, but here’s an elaboration.
Regarding the possibility of being swayed by evidence and properly basic belief, there simply is no principle of rationality that says you have to believe whatever the evidence dictates in any inquiry whatsoever. Take the murder scenario above. You have clear memories of the very time the murder was committed, but all the evidence is stacked against you. There's video, witnesses, murder weapon with your fingerprints, etc. Are you irrational if you maintain your innocence? It's hardly obvious that you are, and I have a very strong intuition that you're not. There is no evidence that will make your belief irrational (perhaps unless and until they figure out how to implant vivid memories in people's minds, but even that’s not clear.) After all, how do you know you haven’t been framed?
Change the scenario a bit and say that the evidence is mostly against you, but you still remember clearly not doing it and you've got some evidence in your favor. Are you intellectually dishonest to argue your innocence even though you have an antecedent commitment to your innocence? No, you're not.
Is it possible that if God exists, he gives people a faculty whereby they come to believe in him without any evidence? I don't know how to deny this, and the resulting belief might be impervious to defeating evidence for some or all believers.
You appear to be implying that this is clearly not so--that belief in God is not properly basic. I'm not arguing that it is, only that it is a logical possibility that it isn’t clear doesn’t obtain. If the Christian God exists, it seems even likely it does obtain. So what is your warrant for believing it doesn’t? I take it that your position that it isn't is only as strong as your position that atheism is true. That just brings us around full circle. There’s no reason for Craig or me to grant you that our belief in God in fact isn’t properly basic, nor for you to grant Craig that it is. Your charge that Craig is a scoundrel rests on your charge that his belief in fact isn’t properly basic. It seems your evidence for this claim is only as strong as your case for atheism. That’s why I suggested you’re begging the question against Craig.
On Avalos: There is nothing wrong with calling the qualifications of a scholar into question when the qualifications in question are relevant to the topic. However, it seems very plausible to me (again, the disclaimer) that Shelly’s ability to identify an ancient manuscript by sight was completely irrelevant. His qualifications don’t depend on this. Avalos’ stunt certainly implied in front of a live and ignorant (in the relevant respects) audience that they did. So it just plain was unprofessional and dishonest, regardless of whether or not Avalos had a point.
On whether or not Avalos had a point, frankly, I don’t know, but I can see a very plausible scenario in which he didn’t (and in which it would be difficult for Shelly to explain this to the audience, especially if he got flustered.)
Two archaeologists are at a dig. One finds some papyri and exclaims, “Jones, I’ve just discovered manuscripts containing the complete Penteteuch.” “Smith, you mean they’re perfectly preserved with no holes?” “No, of course not.”
The only thing fishy in that dialogue is why Jones would take Smith to mean by “complete” having no holes in the manuscripts. It’s also intelligible if Smith holds up a page of the manuscript and Jones says, “Boy, that’s not very complete. There are holes all over it.” It all depends on the context. Given the fact (disclaimer) that Avalos played a dirty trick on Shelly, it seems at least plausible that he didn’t give his argument a charitable reading in the proper context.
That's my last word on the Avalos issue and likely my last word on everything but maybe the proper basic belief stuff.
Two archaeologists are at a dig. One finds some papyri and exclaims, “Jones, I’ve just discovered manuscripts containing the complete Penteteuch.” “Smith, you mean they’re perfectly preserved with no holes?” “No, of course not.”
I have absolutely no problem with Smith’s excited utterance, however, when he sits down to write an article about his find for a scholarly journal, he had better be precise about what he found. He cannot describe it as “entire” if he really knows that it only contains 75% of the relevant text. If he does so, he does not deserve to be read charitably by other scholars.
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